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Cooldown stacking with steady breath and vengeful fighter

Discussion in 'Guides' started by Mukimpo, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. Mukimpo

    Mukimpo Active Member

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    So ppl i am doing a bit of theorycrafting here (i got the ingredients but too scared to commit), I read reddit discussed this a but no one really proven it

    Basically thinking to stack cooldown by combining steady breath (a slot) and vengeful fighter (b slot) on black knight (because of his weapon’s distant counter), it ‘stacks’ because both triggers on separate sequence (does not clash with each other)

    Steady breath: If attacked, unit granted Def+4 during combat; also gains Special cooldown charge +1.
    (If using other similar skill, only highest value applied.)

    Vengeful fighter. 3: If unit's HP ≥ 50% and foe initiates combat, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack. Grants special cooldown charge 1+ per attack. (Does not stack.)


    33E8F4CD-E3FF-43F4-A561-764A5B2EC455.jpeg

    So imagine how this goes with the 5cd special aether (4cd dragon fang could be a good alternative as well where it would guarantee proc on counter)

    -enemy attacks: +2 cd (steady breath)

    -bk 1st counter:+2 cd (vengeful fighter)

    -bk 2nd follow up counter: +2 cd (vengeful fighter) aether charged for next turn (if using dragon fang it will trigger here instead)


    *Or for faster enemies (non brave)

    -enemy attacks: +2 cd (steady breath)

    -bk 1st counter: +2 cd (vengeful fighter)

    -enemy counters : +2 cd (steady breath) aether charged

    -bk 2nd follow up counter: aether / dragon fang triggers

    So my question is, is this cd stacking worth it?
     
  2. Rubi

    Rubi Moderator Staff Member

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    Steady breath already gives extra cd even when Black Knight attacks. Vengeful Fighter does not give him extra cd.

    Also, I have no idea why anyone would use any other special over Black Luna, that skill gives the highest point for arena and is insanely powerful.

    If you want a truly terrifying combo, try Bold Fighter + Steady Breath + Black Luna + QP. Guaranteed to proc BL whether he initiates or gets initiated on.
     
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  3. XRay

    XRay Active Member

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    You want Ignis.

    Black Knight
    Alondite
    Steady Breath, Quick Riposte
    Enemy Phase [Ignis] 177:9:18
    Enemy Phase [Dragon Fang] 166:9:29
    Enemy Phase [Black Luna] 165:9:30

    Before Vengeful Fighter was released, Ignis-Steady Breath-Quick Riposte was the best performing Enemy Phase set. Some players may also find that better performance is more important than getting a higher score, as getting a higher score only matters when you are on the edge of being promoted or demoted.

    Currently though, some players might have access to a spare Ike but not a spare WE!Tharja, so Ignis-Steady Breath-Quick Riposte is their way of maximizing performance.

    For whales without resources limits, Black Luna is now strictly better with the release of Vengeful Fighter.

    Black Knight
    Alondite, Black Luna
    Fury, Vengeful Fighter
    Enemy Phase 185:1:18
     
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  4. Rubi

    Rubi Moderator Staff Member

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    May I ask how you're getting these numbers? What enemies are you pitting BK against? I hope you're not getting those number from vanilla sets right?

    [​IMG]

    Uh oh you really were using vanilla sets. You know those W:L:T numbers mean very little in a real arena scenario when no actual player going to use base sets right? This is poorly indicative of the current meta or the sets most players are using.
     
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  5. Mukimpo

    Mukimpo Active Member

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    Damn i already given steady breath to bk :/
     
  6. XRay

    XRay Active Member

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    W:L:I ratio using vanilla enemies is relative measurement used for comparing two different builds. It is not meant to directly reflect how well a build will perform in arena.

    You can go through the trouble of running Fury/Swift Sparrow on every enemy to reflect actual battle more accurately, but Black Luna-Fury-Vengeful Fighter is still comparatively the best Enemy Phase build.

    I do not see the point in reflecting battle accurately unless there is a specific unit that Black Knight must counter. The point of W:L:I ratio using vanilla enemies is that it is quick and easy to set up so you can see which builds perform the best. If a build is comparatively the best, then it should generally also perform the best in real combat as well.

    Black Knight
    Alondite, Black Luna
    Fury, Vengeful Fighter
    Enemy Phase [Enemies with Fury Overwrite] 178:4:22
    Enemy Phase [Enemies with Swift Sparrow Overwrite] 180:6:18
    Enemy Phase [Enemies with Moonbow, Fury Overwrite] 177:7:20
    Enemy Phase [Enemies with Moonbow, Swift Sparrow Overwrite] 180:10:14

    Black Knight
    Alondite, Black Luna
    Steady Breath, Bold Fighter
    Quickened Pulse
    Enemy Phase [Enemies with Fury Overwrite] 146:6:52
    Enemy Phase [Enemies with Swift Sparrow Overwrite] 147:8:49
    Enemy Phase [Enemies with Moonbow, Fury Overwrite] 147:7:50
    Enemy Phase [Enemies with Moonbow, Swift Sparrow Overwrite] 148:10:46
     
  7. Locky

    Locky Moderator Staff Member

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  8. Mukimpo

    Mukimpo Active Member

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    T-T thanks for consoling me, yeah i noticed steady breath has +4def so not so bad
     
  9. XRay

    XRay Active Member

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    Black Knight
    Alondite, Black Luna
    Fury, Vengeful Fighter
    Cloudedstrife Import List
    Enemy Phase 162:28:30
    Enemy Phase [Defense +3] 169:17:34

    Black Knight
    Alondite, Black Luna
    Steady Breath, Bold Fighter
    Quickened Pulse
    Cloudedstrife Import List
    Enemy Phase 157:18:45

    @Rubi @Locky That import list evens out the score more, so I do see merit in the dual phase set for flexibility. However, I personally value a unit specialized in one phase more for better first round performance. In my opinion getting 5 more kills in exchange for 10 more deaths is pretty reasonable since you are generally not going to send your unit into battle if it has color disadvantage.

    A player can also run Defense +3 Sacred Seal if they want to have similar levels of survivability, as there is much less demand for it than Quickened Pulse.
     
  10. Rubi

    Rubi Moderator Staff Member

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    Not every unit runs Fury or Swift Sparrow. That is a gross oversimplification of what sets are being run in arena and arena assault.

    In fact, I'm absolutely confused by the suggestion of Fury and Vengeful Fighter on any unit. VF has a 50% HP requirement to activate, and Fury will take away 6 HP from BK after combat. +0 BK has 48 HP at lv 40, 6 HP is 12.5% HP lost. Do you intend BK to be effectively deadweight after 1 encounter? I've actually counted the number of units that will leave BK with less than or equal to 23 HP after a single encounter on the battling simulator: A whooping 79 of them. Want to take a guess how much higher that number will rise if I actually gave them common sets?

    I also take issue with comparing the W:L:T numbers of a Fury set to a non-Fury set. I'm actually not at all surprised that a Fury set achieved higher score, getting 3 to every non-HP stat sounds marvelous on paper. But you're clearly ignoring/downplaying the glaring drawback of having to take 6 HP after combat, which will most certainly mean BK is not built to engage multiple enemies unless you use a healer.

    The rationale behind my SB BF set is simple: I'm making sure that BK procs a devastating Black Luna whether he initiates, or is initiated on. I'm turning him into a terror both player phase AND enemy phase. (I think we both know that if we compare Player phase W:L:T numbers, my set will be the clear victor here.)

    I don't think you'll ever convince me that Fury VF BK is a good idea, nor do I think I can convince you that my SB BF set is superior. We can agree to disagree. Maybe Mukimpo here can be our little guinea pig and test out how these sets perform in an actual arena scenario, but I sure don't plan on building my BK to be a "1 encounter then you're effectively useless" unit.
     
  11. XRay

    XRay Active Member

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    I can agree on our disagreement.

    In my opinion, getting the highest kill count in a unit's first round of combat is generally more important than worrying about the unit's subsequent rounds of combat. Arena battles are over so quickly that planning for multiple rounds of combat is not necessary so the HP reduction is irrelevant. To get the highest kill count, you want to stack skills that activate on the same phase together for the best performance.

    Black Knight
    Slaying Edge [Atk], Black Luna
    Death Blow, Bold Fighter
    Attack +3
    Cloudedstrife Import List
    Player Phase 206:4:10
    Player Phase [Cloudedstrife Import List Merge+10] 199:5:16
    Player Phase [Alondite] 204:4:12
    Player Phase [Alondite, Cloudedstrife Import List Merge+10] 191:7:22

    For comparison

    Black Knight
    Alondite, Black Luna
    Steady Breath, Bold Fighter
    Quickened Pulse
    Cloudedstrife Import List
    Player Phase 189:7:24
    Player Phase [Cloudedstrife Import List Merge+10] 174:17:29

    Additionally, having a high death count is also irrelevant if the kill count justifies it, as no player would willingly force their unit against the weapon triangle and get their unit killed in the first place. Teammates also exist, so once the Black Knight shuts down the most threatening green enemy, the Black Knight should pull back and let his blue and green allies take on red and blue units respectively.

    Few Arena defense teams out there run a triple red/blue/green team. Even if the Black Knight needs to face say three Hectors, Black Knight's own green ally can chip in and lighten the load by taking on one of them.
     
  12. Cloudedstrife

    Cloudedstrife Bro Mod(e): Activate!!! Staff Member

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    I'll try to update the import list asap. This has been a crazy couple of months!
     
  13. Locky

    Locky Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, I have run into arena matches where I have the misfortune of having to load one unit into doing the rest of the job and I can't afford to have one-trick ponies. You don't always get the ideal scenario where your enemies are a decent evenly distributed red/blue/green/colorless where you take out one unit and said unit can head back safely out of range and you can happily pair favourable 1 vs 1 fights in your favor at a comfortable pace.

    There are a couple of times where the enemy stacked horse counters heavily, my bonus unit is an arena score padded deadweight, and reinhardt has to sit back while I have to push michalis into fighting more than half of the enemies and fury's recoil dmg would really screw with the longevity of quick riposte for example.

    In an ideal world, I can spam Reinhardt and reposition and never ever get hit. In an ideal world, I can drop Cherche conveniently in front of a single unit who will deal just that damage I need to go on desperation/brash assault spree, but sometimes its not just the enemies but also the map layouts that force your hand - and this is where you want your units to flexibly deal with more than 1 encounter and be able to cover as many potential threats as they can, both as a single unit, and as a team.
     
  14. Mukimpo

    Mukimpo Active Member

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    Thaks everyone for some good thoughts here, i wish one myth clarified here

    so steady breath charges cd when enemy attacked you (-2),
    and vengeful fighter charges cd when you counter attack (-2 & -2) (guaranteed twice), so that's why I think when both combined a 4cd special like dragon fang would work well with his high atk (grants +50% atk) as it would proc whenever bk got attacked

    5cd special like aether means that if enemy doubles bk then aether would be executed at the end (replenishing his hp)

    Am i just dreaming here?
     
  15. Locky

    Locky Moderator Staff Member

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    If enemy attacks you, steady breath will charge (-2) on both the enemy attack AND your own counterattack. e.g. if Enemy A with 28 spd hits Bike, he will go from 4CD aether to 2 CD, fully charge on his 1st counter attack (2CD to 0), then quick riposte will ensure his 2nd strike will unleash aether. This is the true power of steady breath and why its redundant to have vengeful fighter in B slot. If anything, people who use vengeful fighter in B slot usually have distant counter in A slot.
     
  16. Mukimpo

    Mukimpo Active Member

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    omg u re right @Locky @Rubi tried bk on aether vs fast enemy that would double him (like mia) and aether triggered On counter! This is exactly what i am after, gonna save vengeful fighter for future unit then. Myth busted! Thank u!

    66BFC304-C78A-4B8F-BEAB-D23764C3C99E.jpeg 091898EE-CE09-452A-A465-EA4EF07563C6.jpeg 03616C41-70AD-4ACC-A6F6-3BBC2B1E63FA.jpeg 68284801-7C90-4937-AFE4-7B91DC035E04.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  17. XRay

    XRay Active Member

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    I guess it depends on your team composition and play style. I have never run into a situation with sustainability ever being an issue in Arena and Arena Assault with Brave Bow archer, mage, and Dancer/Singer core. For my Arena team before BH!Lyn was a thing, Olivia is my one trick pony in the team designed to just handle Bonfire-Vantage Hectors by herself with Ruby Sword-Fury-Vantage, and BB!Cordelia can help lighten the load by taking down damaged Vantage Hectors so Olivia can cripple more Vantage Hectors.

    I am going to disagree here. Ranged unit-Dancer/Singer combo is my go-to strategy for the game and it works well for every mode except for certain Grand Hero Battle maps and the one Arena map with vertical parallel bridges if the opponent is using ponies. Most maps give you plenty of space to attack, Dance/Sing, and Reposition the Dancer/Singer back.
     
  18. Locky

    Locky Moderator Staff Member

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    Exactly. We have to deal with these exceptions. If anything its actually the zig-zag map that gives me more problems than the vertical bridges map because I can funnel my enemies into suiciding into enemy phase tanks via AI manipulation and some baiting on the 1 lane bridges.
     
  19. XRay

    XRay Active Member

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    I guess we find different ways to deal with it. I just merge my way out of cavalry teams so I can deal with it less often.

    I find the zig zag map to be pretty easy as the enemies can be split apart and I can just run Reinhardt and BH!Lyn up and down the left side and kill anything that crosses to my side.
     
  20. Mukimpo

    Mukimpo Active Member

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    I actually find armor march handles terrain issue quite well in case cavalry units can’t easily move around (i use 2 cavs bh!lyn and reindhart and 2 armored w!tharja and h!henry)
     

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